tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post2138602777800281634..comments2024-03-22T12:20:48.920+00:00Comments on open...: RMS and His Magic BreadGlyn Moodyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04436885795882611585noreply@blogger.comBlogger70125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-88452000586100629942009-06-22T18:12:53.985+00:002009-06-22T18:12:53.985+00:00No, I didn't say it was dishonest, but it'...No, I didn't say it was dishonest, but it's factually against the law as current written, and against the implicit bargain - long ago broken by the intellectual monopolists - that copyright is based upon.<br /><br />And note that I *never* call it "theft", always copyright infringement....<br /><br />I'm a big fan of sharing, and always put copyright as currently structured in the wider context of sharing being a good thing.Glyn Moodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04436885795882611585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-42989672239434699402009-06-22T17:09:03.016+00:002009-06-22T17:09:03.016+00:00Glyn, I'm intrigued by your apparent assumptio...Glyn, I'm intrigued by your apparent assumption that copyright infringement is dishonest.<br /><br />Copyright is an 18th century reproduction monopoly granted to (commercial) printers. It was never recognised as a natural right, and so never envisaged as a law that would demarcate right vs wrong for the individual's cultural actions.<br /><br />That you have also acceded to the monopolists' programming that 'infringement=theft' and 'sharing=dishonesty' and perpetuate this isn't encouraging. :-(<br /><br />Let's distinguish between the heartfelt wish to reward artists for their work, to incentivise them to produce more, from the printer's privilege of suspending the public's cultural liberty (in order to sell them copies they can now make themselves).Crosbie Fitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06554471152790988479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-29925856620227671172009-06-22T15:31:55.310+00:002009-06-22T15:31:55.310+00:00It's a question of what's a fair price: yo...It's a question of what's a fair price: you can't expect people with limited disposable income to pay unreasonable prices. And remember: it costs effectively *nothing* to make a digital copy of a music file, so prices can be incredibly low and still make money for the companies. Currently, prices are still too high for many nations, which is why unauthorised copies are so common.<br /><br />I do think people are basically honest, but no, free software doesn't depend on that. It does depend on there being enough people who want to write software and given it away, which is the other side of that honesty, but in this case it's not a matter of *not* taking, it's a question of *giving*.<br /><br />Finally, profitable open source companies like Red Hat show that independently of all these factors, it is still possible to make money giving away stuff - you just have to charge in a different way.Glyn Moodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04436885795882611585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-71527409318358361022009-06-22T15:22:09.468+00:002009-06-22T15:22:09.468+00:00Or are people lazy enough not to take the pain to ...Or are people lazy enough not to take the pain to get it from someone else if they can download it themselves in no time for as little as 99 cents?? :)<br />Also i don't think even then, i've to face it, ordinary Indians would pay anything if they can get it for free. One reason also being that if We want a good collection, we want at least 15-20 GB of songs that include our Regional language, the old Bollywood, the recent Bollywood and the popular English (rock etc) songs. That would cost much. We didn't use to have a collection in Cassette days because even if they were reasonably priced, no one was able to purchase that many songs. Since easy copying of digital data came along, people carry whole discographies of many artists. So unless you mandate them to pay for it somehow, you'll really be selling only 1 copy of your content. S/W or Music. Any content that can be easily reproduced. And aren't we depending upon people's honesty to get paid for the copies?? Isn't it like living on donations?? If something is not compulsory, it's null and void. Nobody is going to do that. Everybody's responsiblity is nobody's responsibility. <b>So is, ultimately, this whole free s/w thing standing upon people's honesty?</b><br />And how about analogy between freedom to express your view and free s/w? S/W is analogous to a car made by many people in a factory. How with speech? On the other hand car, even if can be studied and modified, cannot be resold in thousands, just like bread. And still, that field has copyrights. How they do it is open, for e.g. Quattro, but no one is allowed to copy it. So s/w should be the first thing to be tried to be protected.<br /><b>I better read those essays.. :) </b>the same studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-92066097665467546432009-06-22T13:39:24.697+00:002009-06-22T13:39:24.697+00:00Certainly, it's pretty simple: most people are...Certainly, it's pretty simple: most people are honest. When music tracks are fairly priced, people don't mind paying for them. Moreover, they generally don't hand them around, because they recognise it's not fair.<br /><br />But when music companies don't make music or films available, or only in an inconvenient form, or very expensive, the connection is broken, and people get the content from somewhere else - typically P2P networks.<br /><br />So it comes down to striking a fair bargain with consumers: if, as a compay, you do that, they generally tick to that bargain, whether or not there's DRM. And the people who don't stick to it are likely to be the ones who would break the DRM anyway, so what's the point?Glyn Moodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04436885795882611585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-51776134006947288292009-06-22T13:27:12.752+00:002009-06-22T13:27:12.752+00:00One last trouble to you.. Could you just explain t...One last trouble to you.. Could you just explain the iTunes Music store thing?an Indian Studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-89776466640862841732009-06-22T13:11:46.353+00:002009-06-22T13:11:46.353+00:00(Sigh!)Thanks a million.. I'll read that..(Sigh!)Thanks a million.. I'll read that..an Indian Studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-32330889392014442112009-06-22T12:44:15.093+00:002009-06-22T12:44:15.093+00:00I quite understand that some of this stuff is hard...I quite understand that some of this stuff is hard to grasp - it's pretty counter-intuitive at first. Here are two great expositions of the basic ideas on how people can make money by giving stuff away.<br /><br />The Magic Cauldron, by Eric Raymond, is specifically about software:<br /><br />http://catb.org/esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/magic-cauldron/<br /><br />The Grand Unified Theory On The Economics Of Free by Mike Masnick is more general, but highly relevant:<br /><br />http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070503/012939.shtml<br /><br />hope that helps.Glyn Moodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04436885795882611585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-4109456313938199952009-06-22T11:50:12.353+00:002009-06-22T11:50:12.353+00:00Ya, and the Contingency Market may be one such mec...Ya, and the Contingency Market may be one such mechanism that i sought. Congrats and cheers, Crosbie..<br />And i'm also going to read some other posts in this blog as you said, "If you're interested in the motivations of people who write things for free, you might browse through some of the other posts on this blog, many of which discuss this very topic."an Indian Studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-26457892772959627522009-06-22T09:54:51.449+00:002009-06-22T09:54:51.449+00:00Also i don't understand how an analogy of free...Also i don't understand how an analogy of freedom of being able to express your thoughts applies to all this. It's about being able to sell a product and make a living. Especially read the "MS Windows and Music Piracy in India" part of my comment submitted before.an Indian Studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-13111722916415450772009-06-22T09:27:17.614+00:002009-06-22T09:27:17.614+00:00Oh my God… I can’t believe people thought of those...Oh my God… I can’t believe people thought of those things reading my question. First of all, I'm very sorry if I sounded like a "troll". I don't work for MS. I'm just a kid fresh out of my engineering and just getting AQUAINTED with the words "Free s/w" and "FSF". I want to also clear one thing that I live in India where in our engineering colleges; we don’t get exposed to many concepts like free s/w and etc that are not there in theoretical syllabus. So you all BELIEVE IT OR NOT, I’m really not equipped enough to understand the “Simple Explanations” that all the articles and blogs that you skilled people write have to offer.<br /><br />I’m very amazed to know that I use the same wordings, same arguments as that of the “trolls” that you know but I really don’t know that because just for the past 2 days, I’ve started reading articles about free s/w after realizing that I know nothing about how that works.<br /><br />Now, Matt says, “By your logic Apple would have closed the Apple store by now, and they haven't, it's been an enormous success.” I’m telling you I really don’t understand how this works (remember, I haven’t used the iTunes store once. I still don’t own any iPods or Mac. They are much expensive in India if you know INR. I used to get all my music on Cassettes and nowadays, at the most, from some friend who is enthu. enough to buy a CD, or just download ILLEGALY). That is exactly one of the things I want to know… Is it like, “the music in the iTunes store is so low in cost that no one thinks of copying it from neighbor, but just buys a legal copy out of the store”? Is it the mechanism? I really want to know this. *And even if you don’t believe it, No, it hasn’t been explained to me yet by anyone.*<br /><br />Now, you still haven’t explained the BASIC MECHANISM. Now, Matt says, “A lot of us work for corporations who pay us to work on Free Software projects.” Now, till you explain me how those companies make money while making the software open to all, I won’t be able to understand this statement. Because, at least in India, most people don’t buy Windows as it is not affordable. So they literally use a pirated copy. So if suppose MS only had Indian home market (not even corporate, coz they buy legal), then MS will really go bankrupt because 90% home users use a pirated copy. Same is here with Music. We just copy music from our friends, free or ILLEGALY if you want to put it that way.<br /><br />“Believe me, there's a lot of money in Free Software.” I’m asking you HOW? I don’t know the bands Advance Patrol, Nine Inch Nails. You are frustrated?? I’m frustrated Doubly than you reading those vague statements like the ones Matt uses for 3 whole days of my reading… At least tell me a place where these things are explained for a naïve. FSF was no help.<br /><br />I’m begging you to believe me and explain this BASIC thing.an Indian studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-45532918987379654622009-06-21T21:59:52.621+00:002009-06-21T21:59:52.621+00:00I appreciate it's frustrating, but I think get...I appreciate it's frustrating, but I think getting annoyed plays into their hands. To outsiders, it confirms a few prejudices and stereotypes about the hacker world, especially the part that cares about freedom.<br /><br />I've found blogging quite a good discipline for dealing with it; I've learned - I hope - to breathe in deeply, count to a large number, and to try to respond coolly and rationally.<br /><br />Doesn't always work, of course...Glyn Moodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04436885795882611585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-39689318949747086752009-06-21T21:55:48.093+00:002009-06-21T21:55:48.093+00:00Glyn,
Yeah, I'm unkind. I've been fightin...Glyn,<br /><br />Yeah, I'm unkind. I've been fighting these guys for the last several years. The wording they use is consistent across sites, worldwide. I don't know if you saw <a href="http://crankyoldnutcase.blogspot.com/2009/06/trolls-and-linux.html" rel="nofollow">Trolls and Linux</a> and <a href="http://crankyoldnutcase.blogspot.com/2009/06/oh-hell.html" rel="nofollow">Oh Hell</a> both of which discuss the issue.<br /><br />This guy uses the same terms, the same wording, the same arguments as other trolls I've run into. While my suspicion is that he's backed by Microsoft (because he's mostly interested in software). And because he seems unable to understand simple explanations. This is a common disability that all trolls have.<br /><br />So maybe I'm being nasty. Maybe I'm right. I think I'm right.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18354974465136846413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-44661251592289823372009-06-21T21:49:24.326+00:002009-06-21T21:49:24.326+00:00@Crosbie: looks fascinating. At the risk of sound...@Crosbie: looks fascinating. At the risk of sounding rather conventional, how do *you* make money from this system (to pay for the web site etc.)?Glyn Moodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04436885795882611585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-60652942929917424722009-06-21T21:46:29.558+00:002009-06-21T21:46:29.558+00:00Really, the best way to respond to FUD is to give ...Really, the best way to respond to FUD is to give the facts; indeed, the great thing about FUD is that it provides another opportunity to rebut arguments and present alternative views.Glyn Moodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04436885795882611585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-53053430335574006572009-06-21T21:44:03.011+00:002009-06-21T21:44:03.011+00:00@an Indian student:
All we need is a means of ena...@an Indian student:<br /><br />All we need is a means of enabling a software developer's customers to exchange their money for software. Copies don't come into it.<br /><br />I'm working on such a facility at the moment, i.e. <a href="http://www.contingencymarket.com" rel="nofollow">ContingencyMarket.com</a>.Crosbie Fitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06554471152790988479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-48597400087997419352009-06-21T21:43:48.312+00:002009-06-21T21:43:48.312+00:00Anonymous an Indian student said...
@glyn moody
...Anonymous an Indian student said...<br /><br /><b>@glyn moody<br />Thank you first of all. But, i'm talking about something like an Android or an iPhone app. That doesn't require any personal support or any support at all, mostly. And if i'm allowing users to legally make copies, no one (other than the first one) is going to buy from me.</b><br /><br />Prove your thesis. Seriously. Prove it. Meantime, I'll believe Apple. Apple sells music in DRM free MP3 files. By your logic Apple would have closed the Apple store by now, and they haven't, it's been an enormous success.<br /><br /><b>So, i still don't understand Mr. Crosbie Fitch's line "It is possible to sell intellectual work even if it is not possible to sell copies." I exactly want to know HOW. I've been looking for this very mechanism for too long and i think now i'll get it from you.. :)</b><br /><br />Ah, but you aren't looking for that at all, because it's been explained to you, hasn't it <b>Mister Microsoft Troll</b>. You just want to spread FUD about a very successful business model, which is in direct opposition to the business model your company follows. A business model that will kill your company. A business model that is already killing your company.<br /><br />I've read your SEC filings. Your company is in big trouble based on the information in those filings.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18354974465136846413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-45267429449301301942009-06-21T21:42:04.489+00:002009-06-21T21:42:04.489+00:00I think that's a little unkind. It can be qui...I think that's a little unkind. It can be quite hard for someone brought up on the traditional, proprietary software world to grasp the profound differences free software implies. We just need to explain things better.Glyn Moodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04436885795882611585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-90318772375867699212009-06-21T21:36:23.398+00:002009-06-21T21:36:23.398+00:00But will anyone out of all these Free S/W supporte...<b>But will anyone out of all these Free S/W supporters tell me one thing: What will the makers of free s/w eat??</b><br /><br />Food. A lot of us work for corporations who pay us to work on Free Software projects. Others get paid for going in and fixing things. Believe me, there's a lot of money in Free Software.<br /><br /><b>In one way or the other, you're selling something (support etc)to generate money to eat. Now how come that support doesn't come under Knowledge?? You people are against DRM. Then what would the creators of music eat?</b><br /><br />Food of course. You may be blind, but <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090601/0644235082.shtml" rel="nofollow">Advance Patrol</a>, <a href="http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/9558.cfm" rel="nofollow">Nine Inch Nails</a> and a lot of others see how they can make money by releasing their music without DRM on the most infamous bit torrent site of all, <a href="https://thepiratebay.org/" rel="nofollow">The Pirate Bay</a>.<br /><br /><b>A loaf of bread can be sold as it cannot be reproduced.</b><br /><br />Yes, yes, yes, we've heard this whine before.<br /><br /><b>S/W will not be and cannot be sold if people are not refrained from copying it.</b><br /><br />Ah, you work for Microsoft!<br /><br /><b>Tell me how you differentiate between a product and a piece of knowledge. Everything is Knowledge if u see to it that way. I've read many blogs but no one really cares about feeding the family. I guess all live in rich countries like America where you can feed and provide shelter to family by just waiting in roadside restaurant for 3 hours a day.</b><br /><br />Yep. This guy works for Microsoft. Another bloody troll.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18354974465136846413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-64899807380346318632009-06-21T20:59:07.150+00:002009-06-21T20:59:07.150+00:00I think the secret is to look at the big picture. ...I think the secret is to look at the big picture. Many of the best free software coders have been offered well-paid jobs on the basis of their code. <br /><br />I imagine something similar could happen with Android apps: think of it as an extremely effective way of advertising your coding skills to every software company in the world.<br /><br />In the same way, everything I write on this blog is freely available, but it shows what I can - or maybe can't do - as a writer and commentator.<br /><br />Does that help?Glyn Moodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04436885795882611585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-49010352320183127462009-06-21T20:34:06.984+00:002009-06-21T20:34:06.984+00:00@glyn moody
Thank you first of all. But, i'm t...@glyn moody<br />Thank you first of all. But, i'm talking about something like an Android or an iPhone app. That doesn't require any personal support or any support at all, mostly. And if i'm allowing users to legally make copies, no one (other than the first one) is going to buy from me.<br />So, i still don't understand Mr. Crosbie Fitch's line "It is possible to sell intellectual work even if it is not possible to sell copies." I exactly want to know HOW. I've been looking for this very mechanism for too long and i think now i'll get it from you.. :)an Indian studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-55317013834754491662009-06-21T09:31:22.971+00:002009-06-21T09:31:22.971+00:00I refer the honourable gents to the answer I gave ...I refer the honourable gents to the answer I gave some moments ago.<br /><br />It is possible to sell intellectual work even if it is not possible to sell copies. There's a good market for good work, but a poor market for copies.<br /><br />This means that coders are still going to earn a living, but those corporations that make a profit by selling copies at monopoly protected prices are going to have to find other work.<br /><br />Individuals get paid for their work. Corporations survive on profit. The former will still have a market for their work. The latter won't, but then they don't starve if they go out of business. Let's not shed crocodile tears for corporations that have been exploiting an 18th century monopoly.Crosbie Fitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06554471152790988479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-71362826375014872582009-06-21T08:30:47.440+00:002009-06-21T08:30:47.440+00:00That's a good question. The answer is that you...That's a good question. The answer is that you sell the thing that can't be shared - stuff like personal appearances (for artists) or personal support. It's not so much the knowledge that is being sold, as you providing that knowledge on a one-to-one basis. That's scarce by definition, and hence something that can't be replicated or reduced to zero value by technology.<br /><br />That's the great thing about the economics of digital content: it actually makes the analogue aspect *more* valuable.Glyn Moodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04436885795882611585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-60014000188990410372009-06-20T20:36:44.945+00:002009-06-20T20:36:44.945+00:00But will anyone out of all these Free S/W supporte...But will anyone out of all these Free S/W supporters tell me one thing: What will the makers of free s/w eat?? In one way or the other, you're selling something (support etc)to generate money to eat. Now how come that support doesn't come under Knowledge?? You people are against DRM. Then what would the creators of music eat? A loaf of bread can be sold as it cannot be reproduced. S/W will not be and cannot be sold if people are not refrained from copying it. Tell me how you differentiate between a product and a piece of knowledge.. Everything is Knowledge if u see to it that way.. I've read many blogs but no one really cares about feeding the family.. I guess all live in rich countries like America where you can feed and provide shelter to family by just waiting in roadside restaurant for 3 hours a day..an Indian studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19798349.post-32232533540033102482009-06-12T21:14:45.212+00:002009-06-12T21:14:45.212+00:00@Yonah: I certainly don't regard RMS as a/the...@Yonah: I certainly don't regard RMS as a/the Messiah, nor a Saviour in the religious sense.<br /><br />I do think he is a remarkable person whose ideas will have a profound impact on the world in the next few years (if we're lucky) - and I'm not just talking about software. That's enough to be going on with, no?Glyn Moodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04436885795882611585noreply@blogger.com